Library images and 0 layer

[CVH]

It seems that with all the versatility in QCAD, there may not be a way to have it work as I would like.

I want to draw a schematic circuit diagram on a layer other than layer 0 (Schematic). I want to use library parts in it. I want to use additional elements in it, mostly lines and text. I really would like it if all of my schematic drawing was on ONE layer so I can turn it on or off or change the color or the line widths working with just one layer. Is that possible?

Should be possible.
First remember that Layers are intended to group things that should be displayed alike, printed alike.
And that Blocks are intended to group things that belong to the same geometry, sub-shape, ...
Create layers for:
- Schematics
- Block Attributes
- Auxiliary items
- Additional elements
- Notes
- In contiuous linetypes
- In hidden or center linetypes
- With different colors
- ... And so on

Hiding/showing several layers at once can be achieved by Layer States, see menu Layer ... At the bottom.
A word of caution ... First develop all the intended and required layers because Layer States only record layer attributes of existing layers.
Adding a new layer in a later stage of development requires you to update all Layer States one by one.
Renaming will fail too, the stored attributes for the old name will not be used. For a deleted layer it is straight forward.

All attributes are saved with Layer States, one can thus display layer 'X' in color this and thick for state A and thin+dotted in color that for state B.
Layer attributes also include: Visibility, Frozen/Thawed, Locked or not, Plottable and Snappable aside from Color, Lineweight, Linetype.
Also see: https://www.ribbonsoft.com/en/tutorial- ... yer-states

And yes, complexity grows when using Blocks and the possibility of their inherited attributes nature.

Reagrds,
CVH

[Husky]

I have been working on my first schematic diagram - drawing that is. I have been adding Block References from the Library and I experimented with getting everything on my 5Schematic layer. I did succeed with one, but it was a rather long process.

I first changed to layer 0. I'm not sure that was necessary, but that's what I tried.
I placed an instance of a Library part, a connector, on layer 0.
Then I exploded it. That way I was not moving a Block, just the component parts of what was one.
I moved all the pieces to my 5Schematic layer.
Then combined it back into a Block so I could move it about easily.

1. I don't see any logical nessesarity to use the layer 0 functionality for schematic diagrams. Those symbols don't need to provide changing infos like hidden (behind other parts or not) etc.
2. This exercise placing a block on 0, explode, move to 5Schematic, building new block ...
Why you didn't place the block in first place on 5Schematic? Or at least moving the block from 0 to 5Schematic within the Property Editor? And what was the reason to explode the block?

[Chips&Chips]

Background:

I am beginning with QCAD. But NOT with 2D CAD in general. I go back to the DOS days here. That was before Windows.
I do a lot of electronic work so I do want libraries for that.
I have seen drawings made by others, probably several others, with 50 or more layers which had no real consistency in how they were named. Related layers were scattered all over the list so you could spend several minutes just getting the pertinent layers displayed. They were a real pain to pick your way through. So I want some kind of way of organizing the layers in my drawings.
I want plain, EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE names that are in some logical order.
I want to be able to change the order they are listed in the program. That is usually alphabetically with no way to change it.

What I did:

My thought is to prefix the layer names with a number. That way I can control the order they show up in.
The use of layer "0" by the creators of more than one 2D CAD program seems to go along with this.
So I started my first QCAD drawing with numbers before the layer names. The Schematic layer was the fifth one that I added to THAT drawing so it became 5Schematic.

But, part of this is the idea that the prefix number can CHANGE if I want to change the order.
This would also allow for the grouping of layers with a tens digit or even a 100s digit.

SO:

Creating all my schematic symbols on a layer called "5Schematic" does not fit in with those thoughts. Unless I reserve that number for the schematic layer in all my electronic drawings. This is a process in transition and I may need to do that.

Or think of some better idea.

From my point of view, and perhaps no one shares it, every 2D CAD program that I have used has shared this shortcoming. Perhaps what is needed is some kind of field that the list of layers could be sorted on instead of the strictly alphabetic sorting by layer name that is almost universally used. Perhaps even more than one Sort Order field so they can be listed differently at different times. That way a layer for schematic drawings could have the same name in all my drawings or those of others. Perhaps after some more time with QCAD, I will suggest this.

I have been working on my first schematic diagram - drawing that is. I have been adding Block References from the Library and I experimented with getting everything on my 5Schematic layer. I did succeed with one, but it was a rather long process.

I first changed to layer 0. I'm not sure that was necessary, but that's what I tried.
I placed an instance of a Library part, a connector, on layer 0.
Then I exploded it. That way I was not moving a Block, just the component parts of what was one.
I moved all the pieces to my 5Schematic layer.
Then combined it back into a Block so I could move it about easily.

1. I don't see any logical nessesarity to use the layer 0 functionality for schematic diagrams. Those symbols don't need to provide changing infos like hidden (behind other parts or not) etc.
2. This exercise placing a block on 0, explode, move to 5Schematic, building new block ...
Why you didn't place the block in first place on 5Schematic? Or at least moving the block from 0 to 5Schematic within the Property Editor? And what was the reason to explode the block?

[Chips&Chips]

Background:

I am beginning with QCAD. But NOT with 2D CAD in general. I go back to the DOS days here. That was before Windows.
I do a lot of electronic work so I do want libraries for that.
I have seen drawings made by others, probably several others, with 50 or more layers which had no real consistency in how they were named. Related layers were scattered all over the list so you could spend several minutes just getting the pertinent layers displayed. They were a real pain to pick your way through. So I want some kind of way of organizing the layers in my drawings.
I want plain, EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE names that are in some logical order.
I want to be able to change the order they are listed in the program. That is usually alphabetically with no way to change it.

What I did:

My thought is to prefix the layer names with a number. That way I can control the order they show up in.
The use of layer "0" by the creators of more than one 2D CAD program seems to go along with this.
So I started my first QCAD drawing with numbers before the layer names. The Schematic layer was the fifth one that I added to THAT drawing so it became 5Schematic.

But, part of this is the idea that the prefix number can CHANGE if I want to change the order.
This would also allow for the grouping of layers with a tens digit or even a 100s digit.

SO:

Creating all my schematic symbols on a layer called "5Schematic" does not fit in with those thoughts. Unless I reserve that number for the schematic layer in all my electronic drawings. This is a process in transition and I may need to do that.

Or think of some better idea.

From my point of view, and perhaps no one shares it, every 2D CAD program that I have used has shared this shortcoming. Perhaps what is needed is some kind of field that the list of layers could be sorted on instead of the strictly alphabetic sorting by layer name that is almost universally used. Perhaps even more than one Sort Order field so they can be listed differently at different times. That way a layer for schematic drawings could have the same name in all my drawings or those of others. Perhaps after some more time with QCAD, I will suggest this.

BTW, I DID start creating my schematic symbols on the 5Schematic layer. I was there doing the drawing so it was the easy thing to do. But, after thinking about the above, I took the time to convert them to layer 0 because it would be an otherwise, unused layer on my drawings. So putting library parts there does make some sense. And that is what I am doing until I find a better way.

I have been working on my first schematic diagram - drawing that is. I have been adding Block References from the Library and I experimented with getting everything on my 5Schematic layer. I did succeed with one, but it was a rather long process.

I first changed to layer 0. I'm not sure that was necessary, but that's what I tried.
I placed an instance of a Library part, a connector, on layer 0.
Then I exploded it. That way I was not moving a Block, just the component parts of what was one.
I moved all the pieces to my 5Schematic layer.
Then combined it back into a Block so I could move it about easily.

1. I don't see any logical nessesarity to use the layer 0 functionality for schematic diagrams. Those symbols don't need to provide changing infos like hidden (behind other parts or not) etc.
2. This exercise placing a block on 0, explode, move to 5Schematic, building new block ...
Why you didn't place the block in first place on 5Schematic? Or at least moving the block from 0 to 5Schematic within the Property Editor? And what was the reason to explode the block?

[Chips&Chips]

Background:

I am beginning with QCAD. But NOT with 2D CAD in general. I go back to the DOS days here. That was before Windows.
I do a lot of electronic work so I do want libraries for that.
I have seen drawings made by others, probably several others, with 50 or more layers which had no real consistency in how they were named. Related layers were scattered all over the list so you could spend several minutes just getting the pertinent layers displayed. They were a real pain to pick your way through. So I want some kind of way of organizing the layers in my drawings.
I want plain, EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE names that are in some logical order.
I want to be able to change the order they are listed in the program. That is usually alphabetically with no way to change it.

What I did:

My thought is to prefix the layer names with a number. That way I can control the order they show up in.
The use of layer "0" by the creators of more than one 2D CAD program seems to go along with this.
So I started my first QCAD drawing with numbers before the layer names. The Schematic layer was the fifth one that I added to THAT drawing so it became 5Schematic.

But, part of this is the idea that the prefix number can CHANGE if I want to change the order.
This would also allow for the grouping of layers with a tens digit or even a 100s digit.

SO:

Creating all my schematic symbols on a layer called "5Schematic" does not fit in with those thoughts. Unless I reserve that number for the schematic layer in all my electronic drawings. This is a process in transition and I may need to do that.

Or think of some better idea.

From my point of view, and perhaps no one shares it, every 2D CAD program that I have used has shared this shortcoming. Perhaps what is needed is some kind of field that the list of layers could be sorted on instead of the strictly alphabetic sorting by layer name that is almost universally used. Perhaps even more than one Sort Order field so they can be listed differently at different times. That way a layer for schematic drawings could have the same name in all my drawings or those of others. Perhaps after some more time with QCAD, I will suggest this.

BTW, I DID start creating my schematic symbols on the 5Schematic layer. I was there doing the drawing so it was the easy thing to do. But, after thinking about the above, I took the time to convert them to layer 0 because it would be an otherwise, unused layer on my drawings. So putting library parts there does make some sense. And that is what I am doing until I find a better way. And it has the advantage of standardizing where I can find them if I need to.

1. I don't see any logical nessesarity to use the layer 0 functionality for schematic diagrams. Those symbols don't need to provide changing infos like hidden (behind other parts or not) etc.
2. This exercise placing a block on 0, explode, move to 5Schematic, building new block ...
Why you didn't place the block in first place on 5Schematic? Or at least moving the block from 0 to 5Schematic within the Property Editor? And what was the reason to explode the block?

[Chips&Chips]

Oh, and if the above isn't enough, you asked why I exploded the block.

The Block was created on layer 0.
So the entities in it are on layer 0. That was deliberate. I wanted it and made sure of it.
If the block is moved to a different layer, the BLOCK has a new layer, but not the entities in it. CVH has POUNDED this home. Block has a layer and entities have one or more layers.
When the Block is assigned a different layer, that does not change the layer(s) of the entities.

So you wind up with confusing behavior. With the same part/Block brought in, side by side, on layer 0 (#1) and on layer 5Schematic (#2), and brought in on layer 0 and moved to layer 5Schematic (#3); with both layers visible, all three parts are fully visible but only the Block Attributes of the third one have the color (and other settings, like line width) of layer 5Schematic.

But when I start to turn layers on and off:

Layer 0 only visible:
#1 = fully visible
#2 = only Block Attributes visible
#3 = nothing visible

Layer 5Schematic only visible:
#1 = nothing visible
#2 = nothing visible
#3 = only Block Attributes visible - they have color of 5Schematic

Both layers visible:
#1 = fully visible
#2 = fully visible
#3 = fully visible - elements have color of layer 0, Block Attributes have color of layer 5Schematic

Where I did show the color (and other settings) they took them from layer 0,

This is confusing. By exploding the Blocks I can change the individual elements to layer 5Schematic and they take the settings of 5Schematic: color, line width, line style, etc.

That's why I exploded them. It ended the confusing behavior. Everything; elements, Block Attributes is on the same layer.

[CVH]

I really don't understand why the fully Quoted post and that re-Quoted again.
https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 856#p43849
https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 856#p43850
Reported both posts as quoted copies.

You now moved from 'Library images and 0 layer' to 'Blocks & attributes' to the alphanumerical sort order in the Layer List.
Sure, you can exploit prefixes to force a certain order in the list.
But that is all there is to it.
There is no rocket science involved with layer names.
Call them A-B-C-... or 1-2-3-....
Or use something meaningful like '03-Hidden'

I have seen drawings made by others, probably several others, with 50 or more layers which had no real consistency in how they were named.

One of such source can be from using XREF'S ... External references.
Something not yet supported by QCAD.
Imagine external blocks with entities on certain layers... Layer names can be used ambiguously in different external sources, Block names too.
The layer list has to list them all and diversify with adding alphanumerical prefixes and suffixes. Usually including '$'.
When boiled down to one single file the Block List and the Layer List may very look like a real mess.
But it is as functional as the source.

Please open new topics for different content or issues.

Regards,
CVH

[CVH]

Please use the correct syntax.

- The entities of the Block are created on layer 0.
.... We are talking about a Block definition, a group of entities listed with a Block name in the Block List.
.... You can not create a Block on a certain layer only the entities can be created on one or several layers.

- A Block (Reference) is placed on a different layer.
.... The Block definition is not moved at all, a Block definition has no layer associated with it.
.... A Block Reference is an entity what can be moved.

- When the Block (Reference) is assigned a different layer, that does not change the layer(s) of the entities (of the Block definition).
.... Indeed, a Block Reference is a single entity that can be placed on any layer, all entities must live on a layer.
.... Indeed, this does not affect the entities that make up the Block definition.

So you wind up with confusing behavior.

Not at all, this is how Blocks (group) and Block References (entity) are intended.


But we are not at the same level when first inserted on Layer '0' and then moving to layer '5Schematic' ... Usage case #3 ...
Here Husky asks why not inserting it directly on layer '5Schematic' ... Usage case #2
Sure, but sometimes one forgets to preset the target layer and then there is a quick fix by Property Editor.

You say that there is a difference for the Block Attributes.
I need to try to mimic your case #3 and see what that does.
I presume that not all things are moved but I'll get back on that.

Regards,
CVH

[CVH]

You say that there is a difference for the Block Attributes.
I need to try to mimic your case #3 and see what that does.
I presume that not all things are moved but I'll get back on that.

Right ...
Used your Batt3+Hor-500.dxf item.
The group of entities in the Block consists of 12 lines and 2 Attribute definitions, all on Layer '0' (Black).

Usage case #2:
Selected layer '5Schematic' (Green) to be the current active layer.
If I now insert an instance of the block then only the Block Reference ends up on layer '5Schematic' ...
... The Block Attributes do not, they are created on layer '0'.

Usage case #3:
It depends but the default is to select Block References together with their Block Attributes, See App.Prefs.
Ifso ...
Then you are indeed moving the Block Reference together with 2 Block Attributes from Layer '0' to layer '5Schematic'.

Case #1 >> Block Reference & Block Attributes are on layer '0'.
Case #2 >> Block Reference is on layer '5Schematic', the Block Attributes are on Layer '0'.
Case #3 >> Block Reference & Block Attributes are on layer '0' and everything is moved to '5Schematic'.

Your visibility trials would reflect that.
Not really, the preview of #2 is correct but once inserted it is not ...
I have 2 Block Attributes on Layer '0' with the color of layer '5Schematic' and there is nothing that can explain that.

Also see my entry on "QCAD Troubleshooting and Problems":
https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 651#p43858


I knew that there was something fishy ...
Encountered it with this assignment but fixed it within the custom script: https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9878
Same here but the assignment was far more complicated as the above: https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10109

Regards,
CVH

[Chips&Chips]

I did not intend to start a debate here. I was searching the past posts, looking for ways to do what I want and found this one. It was not marked "SOLVED" or closed. I saw something in it that I didn't completely understand so I asked about it. To quote myself:

Layer 0 behaves differently (best compatibility)
Entities in blocks on layer 0 take on attributes and visibility of block reference.

I am also looking at finding the best way to use library parts in a drawing. Could somebody explain the meaning of this setting better?
Paul A.

I thought that was ON TOPIC here.

Things developed from there and I responded to the questions of others.

If I have violated board rules, I apologize. One of the things that led me to purchase QCAD was this BB. It appeared to be a place where my questions could be answered. So I am using it. But every question that I ask is taken much, much further than it was intended to be. I only asked about the setting in Application Preferences // Layer // Compatibility // Layer 0 behaves differently (best compatibility). I wanted a bit more information on that. The rest was started by everybody else here. I think CVH at least tried to answer that.

[CVH]

Why you didn't place the block in first place on 5Schematic? Or at least moving the block from 0 to 5Schematic within the Property Editor?

Husky, did you tried that out ... ?
Inserting a block instance on '5Schematic' will create the Attributes on layer '0'.
Inserting it first on layer '0' and then moving the Block Reference & Attributes will bring everything to layer '5Schematic'.
There is thus a major difference between both methods.
Why Attributes are not created on the current active layer eludes me.

I don't discuss exploding and re-creating because one can not re-create an Attribute Definition from an Attribute.

Regards,
CVH

[andrew]

Why Attributes are not created on the current active layer eludes me.

Let's say you have a block with three different attribute definitions:

- Name (on layer "Names")
- Voltage (on layer "Voltages")
- Number (on layer "Numbers")

You probably wouldn't want these all to end up on a single layer when inserting the block since you want to be able to control their appearance and visibility separately.

[CVH]

You probably wouldn't want these all to end up on a single layer ...

Maybe not, you are right.

So, this breaks with the common practice that new entities are created on the current active layer.
The new Block Reference and the new Attributes, both drawing entities, are handled differently.
Unaware of this difference it is hard for users to understand that or assist them.

On top:
These associated Block Attributes inherent some drawing attributes (General Properties) from the Block Reference and some from the layer.
All depending on the layer compatibility ...
And that is when using 'by Layer' properties ...
Until the associative nature is broken up ...

I must thus reconsider https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 858#p43858
But I already foresee the next duality.
It gets very confusing but I'll try to bend my mind around it when times permits.

One should create a comprehensive tutorial or FAQ to cover all combinatoric posibilities.

Kind regards,
CVH

[Husky]

If I have violated board rules, I apologize. One of the things that led me to purchase QCAD was this BB.

You didn't violate any forum rule!

But every question that I ask is taken much, much further than it was intended to be.

Some user tent to over complicate in there answers EVERY simple question. That has in my opinion a more confusing than helping effect. I know one or two things about Qcad but trying to follow discussion threads like this one makes me always dizzy! This book lost me already after page 1 ...

This said, what is wrong for your chematic case to set all drawing to this zenario:
First, forget the layer 0 functionality. In this case I see no need for that.
Second, forget layer states, I see currently no need for that too.

1. Set up a Template with basic layer like this Excamle set:
1.0_Symbol
2.0_Text
3.0_Voltage
4.0_Numbers

2. Create Symbol blocks only with those layers.

Now every inserted block can be partly be controlled by this layer set (if nessesery).
Switch e.g. 3.0_Voltage invisible and all Voltage is invisible. No matter on whichsoever layer it was inserted.

On the other hand - if you need to make everything on e.g. 5Schematic invisible, regardless the used layer, use the Freeze function instead of Invisible (Y,F or below menu / layer). In that case ALL used layer on thar layer are controlled/invisible with only one click. This will only affect the layer where the freeze was executed even if unfrozen layer share the same layer set.

Btw: If a particular drawing needs more layer you can put them in the correct order with like 3.1_Voltage DC.

Play around with this setup and share your thoughts on it ...

[CVH]

Over complicating, right.
Experiment, 'play around', or 'trial and error' like I called it is probably your idea of less complicated.

The goal is a comprehensive understanding of how things should work, so that you can predict/explain/verify the functionality.
Given that Block Attributes are NOT inserted on the current active layer is the intended behavior as per Andrews note.

The best compatibility rule does not hold for Chips&Chips cases ... All defined on '0', inserted on '0' and other layers.
A) For some reason the Block Attributes inserted on Layer '0' inherent for example the color of the layer on which the Block Reference lives.
B) But that does not apply for the visibility when inserted on other than layer '0'.

Now A) seems to be per compatibility rule but that is wrong too.
Once Block Attributes are inserted they have no relation anymore with the Block definition.
Block Attribute entities are not entities of the Block, they do not relate back to the Attribute Definition entity defined in the Block.
Hiding the Block in the Block List will show that ... Inserted Block Attribute entities are not affected.

I updated topic https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 651#p43858
With a new file reflecting the intended behavior as per Andrews note.
... Reflecting the newly acquired knowledge.
... Reflecting the duality mentioned in A & B above.

CVH

PS, Paul A. there is a PM for you, See top right corner of the forum.